Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: From hidden compounds in Southeast Asia to the dark web of organized crime, today's episode of behind the Scams pulls back the curtain on one of the most disturbing fraud operations in the world.
Scam farms.
We'll uncover how these massive criminal hubs aren't just stealing billions, but also trapping thousands of innocent people in modern day slavery.
Get ready for a deep dive into the human cost. Behind the Cons. Now, here are your hosts, Nick and Sue.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Thank you, Miles. The best intro dude in the business.
I got more great things to say about you, but time to get to the business at hand. Hello, listeners, and welcome back to another episode of behind the Scams. I'm your host, Nick, and as always, I'm joined by my wife and co host Sue.
[00:00:55] Speaker C: It's great to be back, everyone.
Today we're pulling back the curtain on a story that's as disturbing as it is important.
A hidden world where scams aren't run from behind a single computer, but from massive organized operations known as scam farms.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: That's exactly right, Sue.
Today we're going to dive into something incredibly disturbing, something that goes far beyond the typical financial scam we usually discuss.
As you mentioned, we're talking about the dark hidden underbelly of global scams, where human beings themselves become the collateral, the tools in these massive criminal enterprises.
[00:01:38] Speaker C: Yes, we are, Nick. And you know what? This topic is so intense and so disturbing. I mean, we've covered a lot of ground with all sorts of scams. But when you say human collateral, my mind immediately goes to human trafficking. For clarification, what you are saying is that there's a direct link between these global scam operations and human trafficking?
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Unfortunately, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. What was once largely perceived as an issue of individuals falling for online tricks has in recent years unveiled a much more sinister reality. There's a rapidly growing crisis, especially in Southeast Asia, where massive scam centers are actually operating on the backs of trafficked victims.
[00:02:27] Speaker C: That's genuinely shocking. I knew scams were big business, but I never imagined it involved something as horrific as human trafficking. Like how does that even work? Are these people being kidnapped off the streets or is it more sinister than that? What's the nature of this hidden crisis?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: It's absolutely devastating, Sue. In many cases, it's not the traditional image of kidnapping. It's often through deception, through fake job offers that lure desperate individuals with promises of high paying jobs. In countries like Myanmar and Cambodia, Laos and Thailand.
They're promised legitimate work, good salaries, often in tech or customer Service roles. But once they arrive, their passports are confiscated and they're forced into slave labor, running scams for criminal syndicates.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that? I mean, a high paying job in a foreign country for little effort usually sounds too good to be true.
Do they not realize it's a trap until it's too late?
[00:03:36] Speaker B: They absolutely do. But think about the context. Many of these victims come from vulnerable backgrounds, from places with economic hardship, or they're just young people looking for a better opportunity, sometimes even recent graduates or those who've lost their jobs due to economic downturns. The job offers are incredibly well crafted, appearing legitimate, often advertised on social media or through seemingly reputable recruiters.
They might even pay for their flight and initial accommodation, making it seem very professional.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: So it's a bait and switch, essentially. They're promised one thing and then once they're there, they're trapped. Is this happening on a massive scale or are we talking about isolated incidents?
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Oh, it's a massive scale. It's truly an alarming global crisis that's been escalating rapidly over the past few years.
We're talking about tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people.
It's so widespread that international organizations like the UN have started putting out stark figures, trying to bring attention to just how pervasive and devastating this problem has become.
It's truly a modern form of slavery fueling an equally modern form of crime.
[00:04:59] Speaker C: That's just. It's heartbreaking. So these aren't just people running scams voluntarily to make a quick buck. These are victims themselves, forced into a life of crime under duress.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Precisely. They are victims first and foremost. They are exploited, abused, and forced to defraud others, or often under threat of violence or worse. It adds a whole new layer of tragedy to the scam landscape. It's not just about financial loss anymore. It's about human suffering on an unimaginable scale, fueled by organized crime with seemingly limitless resources. It's a truly complex and devastating issue that we really need to unpack today. You know, sue, when we talk about a massive scale, it's easy for that to sound abstract.
But international organizations, particularly the United nations, have been trying to put some concrete numbers to this horror. Their estimates are truly stark.
[00:06:01] Speaker C: Oh, no, really? What kind of numbers are we talking about? Because when you say stark, I'm picturing something far beyond what anyone might initially imagine.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Far beyond indeed. The UN has indicated that a staggering 120,000 people have been trafficked to scam centers in Myanmar. And that's just Myanmar. Another 100,000 people are estimated to have been trafficked to similar scam hubs in Cambodia.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. 120,000 in Myanmar and 100,000 in Cambodia.
So over 200,000 people in just two countries alone.
That's.
That's unbelievable. When you say trafficked, what does that actually mean for these individuals? Are they literally held captive? Or is it a more subtle form of control? What do these numbers truly represent in human terms?
[00:07:03] Speaker B: It's absolutely sickening, Sue. And yes, it means they are held captive. These aren't people who just voluntarily stayed or found themselves in a bad job.
Trafficked here means they were lured under false pretenses, often with promises of legitimate, high paying jobs in tech or customer service, sometimes even as far as paying for their travel. But once they arrive, their freedom is immediately stripped away.
Their passports are confiscated. They are confined within these compounds, often behind barbed wire with armed guards. They are subjected to strict rules, sometimes physical abuse and constant surveillance.
These aren't just statistics.
Each one of those numbers is a person, a life, someone's son, daughter or parent who has been brutally deceived and enslaved.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that, initially thinking it's a legitimate job, only to end up in such a horrific situation? I mean, I can understand the desperation, but the scale of the deception must be immense.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: It is.
The job offers are meticulously crafted to appear incredibly legitimate, often advertised through social media, seemingly real looking job boards, or even through seemingly credible recruitment agencies.
They exploit the vulnerabilities of people looking for a better life, for an opportunity they can't find at home.
Many are young, sometimes recent graduates or people who've lost jobs. They see the high salary, the promise of a new start, and they don't realize the trap until they are literally behind those walls, with no way out.
[00:08:56] Speaker C: So these numbers from the UN are just the ones they've managed to verify or estimate for those specific hotspots. What about other areas?
Is it possible the real numbers are even higher, spreading beyond just Myanmar and Cambodia?
[00:09:13] Speaker B: It's highly probable, Sue. These estimates are what the UN has been able to track and confirm, primarily focusing on these major notorious scam hubs.
But the networks of these criminal syndicates are vast, extending into parts of Laos, Thailand and other adjacent border regions. It's an evolving crisis, and getting a precise real time count is incredibly challenging due to the illicit and clandestine nature of these operations.
So, yes, it's very likely the overall human cost is even greater than these already shocking Figures suggest it's a truly global human rights catastrophe.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Right, because you mentioned fake job ads before, but it sounds like it's much more elaborate than just a dodgy looking classified.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Exactly. We're not talking about poorly written emails here. These criminal syndicates invest heavily in making their lures appear utterly credible.
They often create fake company websites that look professional, complete with testimonials and convincing about US pages.
They use legitimate sounding names, sometimes even mimicking real companies or creating entirely fictitious but plausible entities. The job advertisements themselves are usually posted on popular social media platforms, messaging apps, and even what appear to be legitimate online job portals. They target specific demographics, young people, often university graduates looking for their first big break, individuals in economically struggling regions, or those who have lost jobs due to the pandemic or other crises.
[00:11:00] Speaker C: So they're preying on vulnerability and aspiration. That's really dark. What kind of jobs are they advertising like? What's the hook?
[00:11:09] Speaker B: The hook is always high salaries for seemingly easy work, often remote or requiring relocation to a vibrant, exciting place like, ironically, Southeast Asia. They promise roles in things like cryptocurrency, trading, online gaming, e commerce, customer service, or IT support.
They make it sound like a golden opportunity, a chance to make serious money and have a new adventure. And they often offer to cover all travel expenses, even paying for flights and accommodation up front. Which is a massive red flag in retrospect. But when you're desperate, it can seem like a dream come true.
[00:11:52] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising. I mean, who wouldn't want a high paying job with free travel? But then how does that translate into forced labor? There must be a point where the dream shatters.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: The dream shatters almost immediately upon arrival. The moment they cross the border, often facilitated by corrupt officials or local enforcers, the narrative changes. The company representative who greeted them at the airport suddenly reveals the true nature of their employment.
Passports are confiscated, cell phones are often taken or monitored, and they are immediately taken to heavily guarded compounds. At this point, the psychological manipulation intensifies.
They're told they owe a huge debt for their travel and processing fees, a debt that grows exponentially with any perceived infraction or attempt to escape.
They're cut off from the outside world, isolated, and often threatened with violence against themselves or their families back home if they don't comply.
It's a meticulously crafted system designed to strip them of their autonomy and force them into perpetual labor.
[00:13:07] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that? I mean, beyond the initial lure. Once they're there, why can't they just say no. Why do they feel they have no choice but to start scared, Scamming people themselves?
[00:13:22] Speaker B: It's a combination of overwhelming fear, desperation, and psychological conditioning. Sue. Imagine being in a foreign country, your passport gone, no money, no way to contact anyone, surrounded by armed guards and facing threats. They are constantly monitored and punished for not meeting quotas. The. The punishment isn't just physical. It can be withholding food, sleep deprivation, or threats against their families. They are truly trapped. The jobs they're forced into are also highly technical, often involving complex scripts and digital tools, which makes it harder for them to simply refuse or sabotage the work. They quickly realize their only way to survive and perhaps eventually escape, is to comply.
It's a tragic irony that the victims themselves are then forced to become perpetrators of the very type of crime that preys on vulnerability, often against their own will. It's a deeply entrenched system of modern slavery. That phrase, modern slavery, isn't an exaggeration.
Once they're inside these compounds, often in remote, heavily guarded areas of Myanmar or Cambodia, the reality is far worse than anything they could have imagined.
These aren't just offices. They're prisons disguised as workplaces.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: You mentioned their passports being confiscated and phones taken. But what's the daily reality like inside? Is it just constant work, or is there more to it?
[00:14:59] Speaker B: It's constant work, constant fear, and absolute control.
Imagine living in cramped dormitories, sometimes with dozens of other people, often unsanitary conditions.
They're typically confined within the compound walls, which are often barbed wire fences, high walls, and guarded by armed personnel.
There's no freedom of movement, no contact with the outside world, unless it's to facilitate the scams. Their days are brutally long. We're talking 12, 14, sometimes even 16 hour shifts, seven days a week. They have strict quotas they must meet for the amount of money they need to defraud from targets or the number of new leads they must generate. Failing to meet these targets comes with severe consequences.
[00:15:51] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising.
Quotas for scamming. Like a sales target, but for stealing money.
What happens if they don't hit them? Do they just get fired? Oh, wait. I guess they can't just get fired, can they?
[00:16:06] Speaker B: No, they can't just get fired, Sue. That's the terrifying part.
Getting fired isn't an option when you're trafficked. If they don't meet their quotas, the punishments are swift and brutal. This can range from sleep deprivation, being deprived of food. Food. Or being subjected to various forms of physical abuse. We've heard reports of people Being beaten, electrocuted, or even sold to other scam compounds if they're deemed unproductive.
There are also severe psychological tactics at play.
Constant threats against their families back home, or public humiliation.
It's designed to break their will and, and ensure absolute compliance.
[00:16:53] Speaker C: Oh, no, really? Physical abuse, that's just. I mean, that's not just forced labor. It's outright torture.
How do they even function under that kind of pressure? Knowing what they're doing is wrong, but being forced to do it.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: It's an immense psychological toll. Many victims suffer from severe depression, anxiety, and ptsd.
They're dehumanized by not only by their captors, but also by the very act of having to betray and defraud innocent people themselves. It's a double trauma.
The constant surveillance ensures they can't escape or communicate with anyone who might help them. Cameras are everywhere, their Internet use is monitored, and even their conversations with each other are often recorded.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people live like that? It sounds like something out of a movie, but it's happening right now to real people. And with confiscated passports and no communication, there's truly no escape, is there?
[00:17:54] Speaker B: For many there isn't. Not without external intervention. The borders are porous, but controlled by the same criminal elements or corrupt officials who facilitate the trafficking in the first place.
Even if they manage to sneak out of the compound and they're in a foreign country, often without knowing the language, without money and without any identification, they're completely isolated and vulnerable. It's an environment designed to strip them of their identity and turn them into cogs in a massive global criminal enterprise.
They're just tools to generate illicit profits with no regard for their well being or human rights.
It's one of the most chilling aspects of these scam operations that's, that's truly horrific.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: To think of these hundreds of thousands of people trapped, beaten, and forced to do something so morally reprehensible, all while knowing their families are thousands of miles away, oblivious to their nightmare. It really hammers home that this isn't just about financial scams. It's about a massive human rights crisis. Oh, wow. I didn't know that it was this deep. Deep.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: You're absolutely right, Sue. It truly is a human rights crisis. And what makes it even more sickening is the very purpose these victims are forced to serve. To perpetrate scams on others.
Often people just as vulnerable, or even those from their own countries.
They're forced to become the very thing they're trying to escape from.
[00:19:28] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you Saying they actually forced them to scare scam their own people. That's like a whole new level of cruel.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Exactly. It's a tragic irony. And the primary scam we're seeing from these hubs, the one that's generating billions, is known as pig butchering.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: Pig butchering? That sounds unsettling. What exactly is that?
[00:19:49] Speaker B: It's a particularly insidious type of investment or cryptocurrency scam. The term comes from the idea of fattening up the pig before slaughter. The scammers, who are often the trafficked victims themselves, spend weeks or even months building a relationship with their target or the pig.
They'll often start on dating apps, social media, or even random messages. They build trust, feigning romance or friendship. They share fabricated details about their lives, their supposed wealth, and then subtly introduce the idea of a highly profitable investment opportunity. Usually in cryptocurrency, they'll show fake apps, fake trading platforms, even allow the victim to make a small withdrawal initially to build more confidence.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. So they're basically grooming these people for weeks. That's so much effort. And these trafficked individuals, they have to pretend to be someone they're not. To trick people into falling in love with them or trusting them.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: Precisely. They're given scripts, even trained on psychological manipulation techniques.
They're forced to maintain these elaborate Personas, spending hours a day chatting, building rapport, and then slowly guiding the conversation towards these fake investments.
They know it's a lie. They know they're ruining lives, but the alternative for them is torture or worse. The pressure on them is immense. They're monitored constantly. Their conversations are reviewed. If they don't convince enough pigs to invest, or if their targets become suspicious, they face severe repercussions.
It's a constant mental battle. I can only imagine being forced to cause financial ruin to strangers, all while being held captive yourself.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that, knowing that they are being forced to do so much work for the scam? I mean, how can they make the targets believe them so genuinely? It sounds so elaborate.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Because the people running these operations, the masterminds, they are experts in human psychology.
And the victims, the ones forced to work, are often from similar cultural backgrounds to the targets. Or they're trained to adapt to different demographics. They might use photos of attractive people, create entire fake online lives.
It's incredibly convincing because it's personalized and taps into universal human desires for connection, love, or financial security. The other primary scams they're forced to operate include classic romance scams where they simply extract money through emotional manipulation without the investment angle. And technical support scams.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: Tech support scams. Like the ones where they call you saying your computer has a virus?
[00:22:55] Speaker B: Exactly. They might cold call people or use pop up messages claiming to be from a well known tech company like Microsoft or Apple. They convince targets that their computer is infected or compromised, gaining remote access and then charging exorbitant fees for fake services or installing malware to steal banking information.
Again, the trafficked victims are forced to be the voice on the other end of the line, following scripts to defraud people.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising. So it's not just this pig butchering thing, but a whole array of sophisticated scams. It really shows the sheer scale of this criminal enterprise and the human cost on both sides is just mind boggling. It's truly horrifying to think these people are living in literal modern day slavery, forced to perpetuate more crime. It's like a never ending cycle of harm.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: You've hit on something crucial there, Sue.
The sheer scale isn't just about the human suffering, which is immense, but also the mind boggling financial impact.
We're talking about billions of dollars being siphoned out of economies worldwide, all thanks to these organized crime syndicates operating from these scam hubs.
[00:24:15] Speaker C: Billions? Like B billions? Oh no. Really? That's not just a few people losing their savings, that's like a significant chunk of global wealth being redirected.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Absolutely.
While it's hard to get precise figures because so much of it is hidden, estimates from various anti fraud organizations and law enforcement agencies suggest that these pig butchering scams alone, combined with romance and tech support scams, are collectively defrauding victims of tens of billions of dollars annually.
[00:24:49] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising. Tens of billions. I mean, where does all that money even go? It's not like they're just stashing it under a mattress, right?
[00:24:59] Speaker B: No, certainly not.
This isn't just about individual scammers lining their pockets. This illicit money is the lifeblood of sophisticated organized crime networks, primarily China linked syndicates as the UN report hints at. It's laundered through complex fingers, financial systems, shell companies and often legitimate businesses, making it incredibly hard to trace.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: So this isn't just about scamming individuals out of their life savings. It's actually fueling other bigger criminal enterprises. Oh wow, I didn't know that Exactly.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Think of it as a massive illicit funding stream. This money doesn't just disappear, it's reinvested. It fuels drug trafficking Arms smuggling, illegal gambling, prostitution rings, even terrorism. In some cases, it exacerbates instability in regions, compromises financial institutions, and undermines the rule of law. It's a truly global problem.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that, for these financial scams? And then that money ends up in these really dark places.
It's like a daisy chain of devastation.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: It is. And the connection is often obscured from the victims.
They just see their investment disappear or realize they've been tricked out of their life savings. They don't necessarily realize that their loss is directly funding human trafficking operations or narcotics or something even worse. It adds another layer of tragedy to their experience. Experience.
[00:26:37] Speaker C: So what you're saying is when someone loses money to a crypto scam from one of these hubs, they're inadvertently contributing to the very human trafficking crisis we just discussed?
[00:26:50] Speaker B: In many cases, yes.
The same groups that are forcing people to perpetrate the scams are the ones profiting from the defrauded funds.
It's a self sustaining vicious cycle.
The more successful the scams are, the more resources these criminal groups have to expand their operations, traffic more victims, and diversify their illicit activities.
It truly is a global financial toll with human consequences at every single step.
[00:27:22] Speaker C: It makes you realize how interconnected everything is, doesn't it? From a seemingly isolated online interaction with to these huge dark global criminal networks. It's horrifying.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: It absolutely does, Sue. And that brings us to the next very frustrating point.
Why is it so incredibly hard to stop these operations?
Why aren't governments and international bodies shutting them down more effectively?
It's a complex web of challenges. Really?
[00:27:53] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, if it's this, this big, if it's billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of people, why isn't there a bigger, more coordinated global crackdown? It just feels like such a massive problem that should be prioritized.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: You'd think so, wouldn't you?
But one of the primary issues is cross border jurisdiction. These scam centers are often strategically located near borders like those between Thompson, Thailand, Myanmar and Cambodia, making it incredibly difficult for any single country's law enforcement to act decisively.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you saying that because they're right on the border, they can just slip from one country to another if they feel the heat.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Exactly. Or even if they stay put. A police force from Thailand, for example, can't just cross into Myanmar and raid a compound.
They need international cooperation, formal requests, and a lot of bureaucratic red tape, which takes time.
And time is exactly what these syndicates exploit. They are Incredibly agile.
[00:29:01] Speaker C: That makes sense. It's not like they're just setting up shop in the middle of a major city where law enforcement has clear authority. They're in these gray zones.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Precisely.
And adding to that complexity is the pervasive issue of corruption. In some of these border regions, local authorities or powerful individuals might be complicit, turning a blind eye or even actively facilitating these operations in exchange for bribes.
This creates a safe haven where these criminal enterprises can flourish without fear of immediate repercussions.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that.
So it's not just a lack of resources or complicated laws. There's an actual active component of corruption that protects them. That's surprising.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: Yes, unfortunately, it's a significant hurdle. If the very people meant to enforce the law are compromised, it cripples efforts to dismantle these networks from within. And that leads to another massive rescuing and repatriating the victims.
[00:30:06] Speaker C: I can only imagine. I mean, if they're held captive, sometimes even under armed guard, getting them out must be incredibly dangerous.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: It is. The victims are often held against their will, their passports confiscated, and they're under constant surveillance.
Even if authorities manage to locate a compound, raiding, it is a highly sensitive operation.
You're dealing with potential violence from the captors, the risk to the victims, and then the logistical nightmare of getting perhaps hundreds of people from various nationalities safely out and back to their home countries.
[00:30:45] Speaker C: So even if they manage to get people out, it's not like they just open a door and everyone walks free. It's a whole process.
What about the lack of international cooperation?
You mentioned it earlier.
Is it just slow or is there a general reluctance among some countries to really tackle this head on?
[00:31:06] Speaker B: It's a bit of both, honestly. While there are international efforts and organizations like the UN involved, genuine, swift and effective cross border cooperation is often hampered by differing national priorities, legal systems, and frankly, political will.
Some countries might not have the resources, others might not see it as their primary issue, and then there's the underlying corruption that prevents full transparency or immediate action.
[00:31:37] Speaker C: It sounds like a perfect storm for these criminals. They've found a way to exploit borders, vulnerabilities and even systemic weaknesses. It's like they're always a step ahead because the systems decide designed to stop them are so fragmented.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: That's a very accurate assessment.
The agility of these criminal organizations, combined with the inherent challenges of international law enforcement creates a situation where it's incredibly difficult to launch a sustained, impactful counteroffensive. They operate in the shadows, leverage technology and exploit human Desperation on both ends, the trafficked victims and the scam targets.
[00:32:22] Speaker C: So it's not just one big problem. It's a whole bunch of interconnected, smaller problems that create this giant, seemingly insurmountable barrier to stopping them. This really puts into perspective why these hubs have been allowed to grow to such a terrifying scale.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: You've hit on such an important point, Sue.
All these challenges in stopping the operations mean that the human cost, the impact on the individuals who are trafficked is absolutely devastating.
It's not just about getting them out. It's about the aftermath and the long journey to recovery.
[00:33:01] Speaker C: I can't even imagine what they go through.
Being held captive, forced to commit crimes, enduring abuse, and it must leave deep, deep scars.
What's the reality for these survivors once they're rescued or if they manage to escape, what's their journey to recovery like?
[00:33:22] Speaker B: It's incredibly complex and often heartbreakingly long.
The immediate aftermath for many survivors is severe psychological trauma. We're talking about things like post traumatic stress disorder or ptsd.
Severe anxiety, depression, and a profound sense of mistrust.
They've been lied to, betrayed, abused, and exploited, often by people they initially trusted.
That shatters their ability to trust others or even themselves.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: Oh, no, really? So it's not just the physical ordeal, but the mental and emotional fallout is, is extensive. I mean, they've been forced to do unimaginable things. Does that also come with a lot of guilt or shame?
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. Many victims grapple with immense guilt, not only from being exploited, but also from being forced to exploit others.
Imagine being forced to scam someone, knowing you're causing financial ruin, all while your own life is in peril.
That creates a profound moral injury.
They might feel deep shame about what happened to them or what they were made to do, which can make it incredibly difficult for them to talk about their experiences or seek help.
[00:34:45] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising.
I mean, it makes sense, but it's an added layer of suffering. And what about the physical toll? Are there lasting physical injuries or health issues or from their time in these compounds?
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Often, yes. Depending on the compound and their captors, victims can suffer from malnutrition, untreated illnesses, and physical injuries from beatings or forced labor.
Some might have permanent disabilities.
The lack of proper health care while captive can lead to chronic health problems long after they're free. And beyond that, the constant stress and fear take a massive toll on their overall physical well being.
[00:35:28] Speaker C: So it's a complete assault on their mind, body and spirit. It's just awful. And then they have to reintegrate into society, that must be incredibly challenging.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: It truly is.
Reintegration is often the hardest part.
Many survivors have lost years of their lives. They might have missed out on education or job opportunities.
When they return home, they often face significant stigma. Their communities or even their own families might not understand what they've been through. Or worse, they might be blamed or ostracized. They might not have any money, no job prospects and no home.
[00:36:07] Speaker C: So they're not just dealing with the trauma, but also with practical barriers to rebuilding their lives. It's not like they just step back into their old life.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: Exactly. They might need significant psychological counseling, medical care, legal assistance, and help with education or vocational training. And the support systems available for them, especially in their home countries, are often severely underfunded or non existent. It's a huge challenge for organizations trying to help.
[00:36:40] Speaker C: So even if they're rescued, the support isn't always there to ensure they can truly recover and rebuild. That's crazy. How do people even begin to recover from something like that? Without a robust support system?
[00:36:53] Speaker B: It's incredibly difficult. Sue. The journey to recovery is not linear. It's often a long and arduous process with many ups and downs. It requires immense resilience from the survivors and consistent, compassionate support from those around them.
Many survivors never fully recover from the trauma, but they can learn coping mechanisms and find ways to lead meaningful lives.
But it takes time and it takes resources.
[00:37:22] Speaker C: It really paints a grim picture. It's not just about the scam and the money lost. It's about the lives shattered and the incredibly difficult road for these individuals to find their way back.
This is a level of human suffering that's really hard to grasp.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: You know, sue, after talking about the immense suffering of the trafficked individuals, there's a really complex ethical dilemma that arises and it's something we have to address head on. It's the concept of dual victimhood.
[00:37:54] Speaker C: Dual victimhood? You mean how the scammers themselves are often victims of human trafficking? That's what you were touching on earlier, right? It's a hard concept to fully, fully grasp because on one hand, these people are being forced to commit crimes, but on the other hand, people are losing their life savings because of those crimes.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: Exactly.
It's a nuanced situation and it challenges our conventional understanding of who the victim is.
When we hear about a scam, our immediate empathy goes to the person who lost their money, and rightfully so. They've been defrauded, often losing significant sums, and the emotional and financial impact can be devastating.
[00:38:42] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've covered so many stories where people have lost everything. Retirement savings, house down payments, even their sense of security.
It's truly heartbreaking to hear what they go through.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: And that empathy is crucial. But then we learn that the person on the other end of that scheme scam call, the one manipulating them, might be a young individual who was trafficked, their passport confiscated, living in fear, facing torture if they don't meet their daily quota. They are, in essence, also victims trapped in a modern form of slavery.
[00:39:20] Speaker C: Wow, that's surprising. I mean, it's not surprising that they're victims, but it's surprising how much it flips your perspective.
So how do we reconcile that? How do we feel empathy for both the scammed victim and the trafficked individual who was forced to be the scammer? It sounds like an impossible tightrope walk.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: It is a tightrope, but it's essential to walk it. The key is understanding the layers of coercion. The person who lost their money was a victim of financial fraud.
The trafficked individual is a victim of human trafficking and forced labor.
Their motivations are entirely different.
One is a perpetrator out of desperation and duress. The other is an unsuspecting target.
[00:40:06] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you saying they actually have no choice? Like they genuinely can't refuse to scam people, even if it means ruining someone's life?
[00:40:15] Speaker B: Absolutely no choice.
Imagine being in a foreign country, your passport seized, under constant surveillance, facing physical abuse, starvation, or even worse, threats against your family back home if you don't comply. These syndicates are incredibly brutal. For them, scamming is a matter of survival, not a choice.
They're often given scripts, coached on manipulation tactics, and monitored constantly. If they don't perform, the consequences are severe.
[00:40:50] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. That really changes things. I mean, it's not like they woke up one day and decided to become a scammer because they wanted to be malicious. They were forced into it.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: Precisely.
They are cogs in a much larger insidious machine. Their individual agency has been stripped away.
And it's important to remember that that many of these trafficked individuals come from vulnerable backgrounds themselves.
They were seeking legitimate work opportunities, often to support their families, and were tragically lured into this trap.
[00:41:28] Speaker C: So the real villains here are the criminal syndicates at the top, the ones orchestrating the trafficking and profiting from both the forced labor and the billions of dollars stolen.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: You got it.
They are the puppet masters, exploiting both the desperation of those seeking work and the trust of unsuspecting targets.
The trafficked individuals are caught in the middle, forced to perpetuate a cycle of harm.
It's a classic example of systemic crime where the immediate perpetrator is also a severe victim.
[00:42:03] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that?
I mean, it makes me think about the psychological toll on the trafficked person. Not only are they abused, but they're forced to cause harm to others.
Knowing they're doing it, that must be incredibly damaging to their psyche.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: It's an immense burden.
Many experience profound moral injury, as we discussed earlier. They are fully aware of the devastation they are causing, but they are powerless to stop. It's a no win situation for them. They are forced to choose between inflicting harm on strangers or enduring horrific consequences themselves.
[00:42:43] Speaker C: And that's a choice no one should ever have to make.
It really brings home the point that the scam crisis isn't just about cybersecurity or financial fraud. It's deeply intertwined with human rights and modern slavery.
It adds a whole new, much darker layer to what we thought we knew about scams.
[00:43:06] Speaker B: It truly does. And understanding this dual victimhood doesn't diminish the pain of those who were scammed, but it helps us direct our outrage and efforts towards the real culprits and the root causes of this global crisis. It also highlights the need for more comprehensive support for both groups of victims. So? So, having discussed the incredibly dark reality of these scam centers and the dual victimhood, it's crucial that we empower our listeners with practical ways to protect themselves.
This crisis, as we've seen, often starts with a deceptive job offer, right?
[00:43:42] Speaker C: Absolutely. If someone's desperate for work, especially in a tough economy, they might overlook things they normally wouldn't.
So what are the absolute biggest red flags for job seekers that scream scam rather than opportunity?
[00:43:59] Speaker B: That's a fantastic and vital question, Sue. The very first red flag, and it's a huge one, is any job offer that sounds too good to be true. Think about it. Incredibly high salaries for what appears to be a low skill job or a role that promises immense wealth for very little effort.
If someone offers you a six figure salary to type emails from a luxury apartment in a foreign country, your alarm bells should be ringing.
[00:44:32] Speaker C: Oh no. Really? So it's not just like, hey, we'll pay you a bit more than average, but truly outrageous amounts that make you blink. Like a secretary making more than a Circle CEO.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: Exactly. It's often so out of proportion to the typical market rate for that kind of Work. The promise of easy money is a powerful lure, and these syndicates exploit that desire. Another major red flag is if the job requires you to relocate to a distant or unfamiliar country, particularly in Southeast Asia, with very little concrete information about the actual work, the company, or the living arrangements.
[00:45:10] Speaker C: So if it's vague about the location or just says something like exciting opportunity abroad. Without specifics.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Precisely. And a big one, sue, is when the recruitment process itself feels off.
Unsolicited job offers received via social media, messaging, apps, or random emails, especially if they're from people you don't know and weren't expecting.
Legitimate companies rarely recruit for senior roles through WhatsApp.
[00:45:42] Speaker C: You know, that's crazy. How do people fall for that? I mean, don't they check out the company?
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Well, they often try, but these scammers are sophisticated. They might create fake company websites, even spoof legitimate company names.
So it's not just about seeing a website, but really digging deep. Is there a physical address, a real phone number you can call and verify? Do they have a verifiable presence on professional networking sites like LinkedIn with actual employees?
[00:46:12] Speaker C: Ah, so it's about going beyond the surface. What about the interview process? Are there any red flags there?
[00:46:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. If there's no actual interview or it's incredibly brief and informal, that's a huge warning sign.
Sometimes they'll just have a quick chat and confirm your interest and then immediately say you're hired without any real assessment of your skills or experience.
It's just too easy. Or if they try to rush you into making a decision, pressure you to accept the offer immediately.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. That sense of urgency, forcing a quick decision seems to be a common thread in so many scams that, doesn't it?
[00:46:56] Speaker B: It really is.
It prevents people from doing their due diligence, from asking questions, from talking to trusted friends or family. And perhaps the most critical red flag, the one that should make you run, not walk, is any request for money up front.
[00:47:15] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you saying they actually ask job applicants to pay them for a job?
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I know it sounds unbelievable, but they do. They might ask for visa processing fees, work permit fees, training costs, or even security deposits.
A legitimate employer will never ask you for money to get a job.
They pay you if they ask for money. It's a scam.
[00:47:42] Speaker C: That's. That's so manipulative. Preying on someone's hope for employment and then asking them to pay for it.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: It's truly despicable.
Also, pay attention to the language used in Job descriptions or communications.
If there are numerous grammatical errors, awkward phrasing, or a general lack of professionalism, that's another sign it could be fake. Legitimate companies, especially those recruiting internationally, will have professional communications, so bad grammar is a major tell.
[00:48:15] Speaker C: What about weird travel instructions? Like if they tell you to meet someone at a specific border crossing, not an airport?
[00:48:22] Speaker B: Excellent point, Sue. If they tell you to travel to a particular border town, like Mae Sat in Thailand, and then cross into a specific area, like My Wadi in Myanmar, or if they instruct you to avoid official immigration channels or lie about your purpose of travel, that's not just a red flag. That's a flashing neon sign saying danger. Legitimate international jobs involve proper visas, official entry points, and clear, lawful travel arrangements.
[00:48:56] Speaker C: Wow, that makes so much sense when you lay it all out like that. So it really boils down to if it sounds too good to be true, if they ask for money or. Or if the process feels rushed and secretive. Hit the brakes and investigate thoroughly.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: That's the key, Sue. And always, always verify. Don't rely solely on the information they provide.
Independently, research the company, look for news articles about them, check their actual registered address, and ideally, speak to people who genuinely work there through independent channels.
It's about being skeptically vigilant. So we've covered how people are lured into these scam operations, often as victims themselves.
Now let's pivot to the other side of the coin. How to protect yourself if you're a potential target of the scams run from these hubs because these syndicates are defrauding billions and anyone can be a target.
[00:49:56] Speaker C: That's so important, Nick. It's one thing to understand the human cost of being trafficked, but it's another to realize that the product of that horror is often a scam directly aimed at our wallets. So what are the key red flags we should be looking out for?
[00:50:13] Speaker B: Excellent point, Sue. The very first red flag, and it's pervasive, is unsolicited messages. Think about those random texts, emails, or direct messages on social media from someone you don't know, perhaps complimenting you or claiming to have made a mistake and message the wrong number.
These are often the first contact point for romance scams or pig butchering investment scams.
[00:50:39] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. So if a random person slides into your DM saying, hey, beautiful smile, or oops, I meant to send this to my friend, that's already a warning sign. I mean, who Just messages random people anymore?
[00:50:54] Speaker B: Exactly. It's almost always a setup. The goal is to start a conversation, build rapport, and eventually manipulate you.
This leads us to the next red flag. Rapid emotional manipulation.
Scammers are masters at building intense, fast relationships. They'll declare their love quickly, share intimate details or. Or claim to be in a crisis within days or weeks.
[00:51:22] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do people fall for that? Don't they notice how quickly things are progressing? It's like one minute you're chatting about the weather, the next they're talking about forever.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: They absolutely do.
But the scammers are incredibly skilled at exploiting loneliness, hope, or even just curiosity. They create a powerful emotional bond very quickly, making the victim feel special, understood, and even loved. It's a psychological trick to bypass rational thought.
They might say, you're the only one I can trust, or, my family doesn't understand me like you do.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: Oh, no, really? So they isolate the victim emotionally, too.
[00:52:05] Speaker B: That's a big part of their scam playbook. And once that emotional hook is set, the next red flag often appears.
High return investment promises.
Especially in crypto. This is the core of the pig butchering scam. They'll slowly introduce the idea of a lucrative investment opportunity, often in cryptocurrency, promising incredibly high guaranteed returns in a very short time frame.
[00:52:32] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you saying they actually show people fake profits on a fake platform?
Like, you put in a little, see it grow, and then they tell you to invest more?
[00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, it sounds unbelievable, but that's exactly what they do. They'll provide a link to a professional looking, but entirely fake investment platform.
You deposit a small amount, and within a day or two, you'll see impressive profits.
This builds trust and convinces you it's legit legitimate. They'll then pressure you to invest more and more, sometimes even encouraging you to take out loans or mortgage your house, promising you'll be a millionaire.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: That's so deceptive. Using your own money to trick you into giving them even more. And these returns, they're always too good to be true, right? Like a 20% return in a week.
[00:53:25] Speaker B: Great point, Sue. If an investment promise is guaranteed high returns with little to no risk, it's a scam.
Legitimate investments always carry risk. And realistic returns are far more modest.
If someone you've only met online or someone who contacted you out of the blue is offering you access to a secret, exclusive investment platform, especially involving crypto, it's a huge warning sign.
[00:53:53] Speaker C: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. So it's not just the unsolved solicited message. It's the combination of the Quick emotional connection and then the promise of easy money.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: That's right. And tied into all of this is the final red flag pressure for quick decisions. Whether it's to invest quickly because the opportunity won't last, or to send money immediately because of an emergency, or to move funds before a deadline, scammers always create a sentence sense of urgency.
[00:54:24] Speaker C: That's interesting because that's something we talked about with the job scams too. That pressure to act quickly without thinking seems to be a universal scammer tactic.
[00:54:33] Speaker B: It really is.
They don't want you to have time to think, to research, or to talk to someone you trust. They want to rush you into a decision before your rational mind kicks in. They might say, this is a limited time offer, or I'm in trouble and need money now. Please don't tell anyone.
[00:54:54] Speaker C: So essentially, if someone you barely know is asking for money or suggesting you invest in something that sounds too good to be true, or putting any kind of pressure on you to make a.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: Financial decision quickly, you hit the brakes hard.
It's about maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism with any unsolicited approach, especially when money is involved.
Always verify, always cross check, and never let emotion or urgency override your critical thinking. We've talked a lot about the problem, sue, and it's a heavy one, isn't it? The sheer scale of the trafficking, the modern slavery, the billions being stolen globally.
But the question that always comes to mind for me is what can we, as listeners, as individuals, actually do?
[00:55:47] Speaker C: That's the critical part, Nick. It's easy to feel overwhelmed and helpless when you hear about something this immense and insidious.
So lay it on us. What are the actionable steps we can take, big or small, to contribute to the fight against scam trafficking?
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Absolutely.
The first and perhaps most direct action is to report scams. If you or someone you know has been targeted by a scam, whether it's a job scam, an investment scam, or a romance scam, report it to the authorities.
In the US you can report to the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint center or the Federal Trade Commission.
FTC.gov Many countries have similar reporting mechanisms.
[00:56:38] Speaker C: Wait, hold on. Are you saying that even if you don't lose money, but you identify a scam attempt, you should report it? Even just the initial contact?
[00:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I know it sounds like a small step, but every piece of information helps law enforcement map out these criminal networks. Even if you just received a suspension, suspicious message, or a fraudulent job offer, reporting it provides data points that can lead to investigations.
It's like building a puzzle. And every reported piece helps complete the picture. It helps them identify patterns, connect dots, and hopefully trace these operations back to their source.
[00:57:19] Speaker C: I always thought reporting was only for when money was lost. That's actually really empowering to know.
So what's next after reporting?
[00:57:27] Speaker B: Beyond direct reporting, a hugely impactful step is supporting anti trafficking organizations.
There are numerous reputable nonprofits working tirelessly on the ground to rescue victims, provide rehabilitation and advocate for stronger policies.
Organizations like the International Justice Mission, Polaris, or local anti human trafficking groups do incredible work.
[00:57:54] Speaker C: That's crazy. How do these organizations even manage to get people out of those compounds? I mean, from what you described, it sounds like a fortress.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: It's incredibly difficult, Sue. They often work with local law enforcement, diplomatic channels and underground networks.
It's dangerous, complex work, but their efforts are crucial.
Your support, whether it's through donations, volunteering, or simply amplifying their message, provides vital resources for their operations, for safe houses, legal aid and psychological support for survivors.
It's not just about rescue.
It's about helping people rebuild their lives.
[00:58:42] Speaker C: That makes a lot of sense. So we report and we support organizations. What else can we do?
[00:58:48] Speaker B: The third key action, and one that we're doing right now, is spreading awareness.
Education is our best defense against both being scammed and inadvertently supporting these criminal enterprises.
Talk to your friends, family and colleagues about what you've learned.
Share information about the red flags for job scams and investment scams. The the more people who are aware of these tactics and the harsh realities behind them, the less effective these syndicates become.
[00:59:20] Speaker C: That's so important, Nick. Because if people truly understood that the smooth talking crypto investor they met online is probably a trafficked victim forced to scam them under threat of violence, it changes the whole dynamic. It adds a layer of urgency to staying informed and vigilant.
[00:59:40] Speaker B: Exactly. Knowledge is power. If you know that too good to be true. Job offer for an overseas position is potentially a trap. You won't fall for it. If you know that instant emotional connection online might be a prelude to a pig butchering scam, you'll be more skeptical.
Awareness is the first line of defense. Not just for your wallet, but for protecting others from becoming victims of human trafficking.
[01:00:11] Speaker C: So to summarize, it's about taking personal responsibility in reporting, supporting the organizations fighting on the front lines, and then, most importantly, sharing this knowledge.
It's a collective effort then, to stay safe and make a difference. We can't just rely on governments or international bodies.
[01:00:33] Speaker B: You got it, Sue. We have to be proactive These criminals thrive on ignorance and silence. By speaking up, reporting and supporting, we chip away at their operations and make the world a little bit safer for everyone. Well, sue, this has been an incredibly sobering episode, hasn't it?
We've delved into some truly dark corners of the scam world, far beyond just losing money.
The intersection with human trafficking, the sheer scale of the suffering.
It's a lot to take in.
[01:01:07] Speaker C: It really is, Nick. My mind is just reeling from the numbers, from the stories of those trapped in modern slavery, and from the idea that the scammer on the other end might be a victim themselves.
It definitely changes how I'll think. Think about these things going forward.
[01:01:26] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's really the core message we want to leave our listeners with today. Beyond the immediate financial loss, there's a much larger, more tragic human cost to these operations.
[01:01:40] Speaker C: So the takeaway is be alert, not just about your money, but also about the wider implications.
Staying informed. I mean, truly understanding the depth of these critical criminal enterprises is our best defense.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's about constant vigilance.
The tactics of these scam syndicates are always evolving, but what remains constant is their exploitation of human vulnerabilities, whether it's through the promise of a dream job or a lucrative investment.
So if something feels off or too good to be true, it probably is.
Trust your gut.
[01:02:17] Speaker C: And that goes for both sides, right? If you're looking for a job, be incredibly cautious of those overseas offers. If you're approached online by someone who wants to talk about crypto investments very quickly, be skeptical.
[01:02:33] Speaker B: Precisely.
We need to keep talking about this, keep sharing information, because awareness is truly the most powerful weapon against these global threats. Threats.
The more people who understand the red flags, who recognize the patterns, the harder it becomes for these criminals to operate and to lure new victims, both as targets for scams and as forced labor.
[01:02:55] Speaker C: It's a heavy topic, but a necessary one to understand the full picture of what behind the scams really means and its true purpose. We are here to expose the world of scale scams to others. And it is not always pretty. In fact, most of the time it is very ugly. You know, Nick, one thing I wanted to briefly mention. As you already know, I grew up in Vietnam until I was about 10, then moved to the US where I was raised in Chicago and later California. I've always loved the culture, the warmth, generosity, and hard work of the people.
That's why it's heartbreaking to see such giving communities exploited by scam farms. It's not just a crime, it's a betrayal of the very values I grew up with.
[01:03:45] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. The world of scams is an ugly place that doesn't care about people, places, or cultures. That is why exposing these tactics, schemes and scams is crucial. We want to help as many people as possible avoid getting caught up in this world world.
That's why we are here and why we started this nonprofit. But we both love our mission and our purpose. We are actively engaged in the relentless pursuit of spreading the message to as broad of an audience as possible.
So to our listeners out there, please subscribe to our channel, give us a good review, and forward our episodes to all your friends and family members.
With that, it's time to close out this episode of behind the Scams. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.
[01:04:35] Speaker C: And remember, stay safe, stay informed, stay alert, and we'll catch you next time. As always, Miles, will you please close us out? This is sue saying bye for now.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: What we've learned today is chilling.
Scam farms aren't just about stolen money.
They're fueled by human trafficking, psychological manipulation, and the exploitation of both victims and perpetrators.
Remember the key takeaways.
Watch out for job offers that seem too good to be true.
Never pay upfront fees, and be wary of unsolicited online approaches. Report scams, support anti trafficking organizations and spread awareness, because the more we know, the harder it becomes for criminals to win.
This is Miles signing off for behind the Scams. Stay alert, stay informed, and don't get played.
